Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast
Results 25 to 32 of 42

Thread: People get OUTRAGED!

  1. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Posts
    1,947

    Re: People get OUTRAGED!

    I'm not talking about those families who are here in the States and are American. I'm talking about the groups that live in the Muslim countries and the governements who don't speak out against it, or when they do its weak. Again, like I did with BE's post, I'm not looking at mass generalizations.

    The slaughter of Iraqi innocents is not by our soldiers, its by suicide bombers. Trust me, I'm no Bush fan, I think he's an idiot and I cringe everytime he speaks. But lets lay blame for killing Iraqi civilians where it should be, on the bombers that blow themselves and others up.

    I just saw him equating every suicide bomber in Iraq and other countries, plus the attacks on the Cole and the embassies, plus the 9/11 attacks, plus the attacks on other targets (i.e. Pakistan just today) in his rant on those that should be eradicated. And given that they will hide behind a shield of women and children, whose to blame when innocents die? Us because we didn't protect ourselves BECAUSE of women and children or the murdering dogs they are for putting innocent people in harms way?

    I don't disagree at all that the search for Bin Laden is a joke. How is it we found Sadam in a hole but we can't find Bin Laden?

    After almost 6 years and the increase of terror threats, I am just leaning toward BE's way of thinking. At what point do we show enough force to stop the kind of bitter hatred that is ingrained in certain minds from a young age? They had NO regard for American's when they brought the towers down, why is it we are supposed to show more respect? I know, the adult thing and all, but I'm sick of buying it at the expense of MORE troops and MORE Americans dying in Iraq.

  2. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 1997
    Posts
    3,031

    Post Re: People get OUTRAGED!

    In my opinion, we have to show more respect because we have to show the people of the Muslim world that we're not stooping to terrorist tactics, and that ours is a better way for them than what the terrorists want for them.
    Had we stooped to not caring about who amongst the Muslim world dies in order to protect American lives and with the same regard the terrorists had for American lives, then the targets should have been Mecca and Medina, not Baghdad, not Kabul, nor Tehran.
    If I were an American terrorist, and wanting to send a message to the Muslim world to not mess with America, those would be my targets. Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Saddam, and perhaps even Bin Laden himself are expendable to our terrorist enemies. But not Mecca and Medina.

    But since we do care about the lives of Iraqis and others, I still say treat terrorism like organized crime (Which is what terrorism is, in my book). And often organized crime mafias tend to crop up when law enforcement and government is either unreliable or insufficient. Often these mafias offer protection when the government in the form of law enforcement is unwilling or unable to provide adequate protection to the populace. For a price of course.

    We also need to show the Muslim world that we are not a threat to them, Israel has to do this too. Because they believe that America and/or Israel will start a campaign of conquest against them. Continuing in this direction, we're not going to adequately prove that to them. These Muslim countries believe that Israel will one day invade not only Palestinian held territory, but expand into Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and beyond, and alone these countries wouldn't stand a chance against such an invasion. (Just look at Israel's invasion of Lebanon) These countries and many of thier citizens believe that these terrorist groups are necessary in order to keep Israel and America in its place. To me, they are willing participants in thier own extortion. They'll continue to send money to the terrorists even if is solely in the belief that thier countries will remain intact.
    Last edited by jolau; 7.17.07 at 4:21 PM.

  3. #27
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    3,781

    Re: People get OUTRAGED!

    jolau...I don't know if you recall, but if you check some past posts of mine, you will see an unusual amount of sympathy I have for the palestinian and muslim people regarding the current conflict they have with the west... being a Christian with libertarian political leanings, you'd be hard pressed to find someone like myself that has the opinions I do on this volatile and delicate issue... I've yet to find any...maybe you have...whatever...

    the current problem is that there will be no peace as long as the palestinians have to go thru Isralie checkpoints to get to a job (if they are lucky enough to have a job) and huge amounts of red tape just to build a house or God forbid start a business... it is the last bastion of colonialism that exists in the world today.. my attitude on this issue changed when I had the opportunity to get to know 3 of them who have lived in Lebanon.. 2 Muslims and 1 Christian... both shared the same grievances with Isralie occupation... there ARE 2 legitimate arguments that can be debated for the next 3 days non stop with no agreements or concessions from either side..

    the problem is that the 1948 deal went down wrong.. 750k muslims run out and put into camps..land they had occupied since the 7th century.. rich zionists lining the pockets of british and u.s. politicians made it happen and it still goes on today.. the problem is that the west has screwed over a very violent group of people that seek revenge and will carry it out in any way possible..

    the only solution to create a peace is one that is not going to happen anytime soon... which would involve Israel withdrawing to the pre-'67 borders and allowing Jerusalem to be controlled by a new international group .... palestinians would be given a chance to prove themselves to live in peace with Israel but knowing full well that western guns would be pointed at them if they mest up... (that I know is another discussion)

    having said all that, there is no way my plan of peace can be arranged because Israel with their deep pockets that they use to lobby the U.S..., have no plans to surrender the west bank..ain't gonna happen....SO... my only desire is to see that these people who want to see MY family dead, is to not have them here.. they are a self inflicted cancer that I have no control over.. I want them threatened and I want them off my soil.. you can call it racism or a drug induced rage all you want.. I call it survival..

  4. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Posts
    9,507

    Post Re: People get OUTRAGED!

    Quote Originally Posted by MeganG View Post
    I'm not talking about those families who are here in the States and are American. I'm talking about the groups that live in the Muslim countries and the governements who don't speak out against it, or when they do its weak. Again, like I did with BE's post, I'm not looking at mass generalizations.

    The slaughter of Iraqi innocents is not by our soldiers, its by suicide bombers. Trust me, I'm no Bush fan, I think he's an idiot and I cringe everytime he speaks. But lets lay blame for killing Iraqi civilians where it should be, on the bombers that blow themselves and others up.

    I just saw him equating every suicide bomber in Iraq and other countries, plus the attacks on the Cole and the embassies, plus the 9/11 attacks, plus the attacks on other targets (i.e. Pakistan just today) in his rant on those that should be eradicated. And given that they will hide behind a shield of women and children, whose to blame when innocents die? Us because we didn't protect ourselves BECAUSE of women and children or the murdering dogs they are for putting innocent people in harms way?

    I don't disagree at all that the search for Bin Laden is a joke. How is it we found Sadam in a hole but we can't find Bin Laden?

    After almost 6 years and the increase of terror threats, I am just leaning toward BE's way of thinking. At what point do we show enough force to stop the kind of bitter hatred that is ingrained in certain minds from a young age? They had NO regard for American's when they brought the towers down, why is it we are supposed to show more respect? I know, the adult thing and all, but I'm sick of buying it at the expense of MORE troops and MORE Americans dying in Iraq.
    Yeah, I guess you could just kill them all........that would certainly stop them from complaining about our interference in their countries, eh?
    Seriously, megan, it's really alarming to see this kind of mindset expressed- do you really think there can ever be a "point" where, if we just commit enough violence against them, that they will "get it?" And that's also ignoring the huge numbers of innocent civilians also hurt and killed.
    You just never make a more peaceful world by committing more violence. This kind of thinking, IMO, is borne out of frustration and emotion, and does nothing to get at the root of the problem.
    I disagree that our troops aren't killing Iraqi civilians- they are. It's heartbreaking to read accounts of these soldiers who committed acts of violence against innocent Iraqis- and will have to live with the emotional consequences for a lifetime.
    And remember, megan, there weren't ANY suicide bombers in Iraq before Bush decided that he wanted to be a "war" president.
    We need to, yes, take the higher ground. Do you think our founding fathers wanted us to be running around the globe, interfering in other countries and manipulating their resources for our benefit? We're supposed to be all about freedom- not waging wars for corporate gain based on lies. We aren't any kind of beacon of freedom or example of the best we can aspire to if we decide that killing people for corporate profits is justified. Or that, if we just kill ENOUGH of them...........somehow it will all be right.

  5. #29
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    3,781

    Re: People get OUTRAGED!

    hey reines.. remember when you and I used to have unusual discussions where we would agree on issues regarding this subject?... have you read my previous post on this thread?... let's put our heads together for just a second.. you will NOT find a republican voter with my opinon on this issue...let's make the most of it for the next few day....cool?

  6. #30
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Posts
    1,947

    Re: People get OUTRAGED!

    Reines, you are missing my point. The world can make a more peaceful world by standing up to those who commit terror. But since Muslim govt's have no qualms about letting large organized groups of people make bold sweeping statements against how we are evil and the cause of all their issues, why shouldn't we defend ourselves against that?

    Somehow you also missed I want this war over and I never supported it from the beginning. But I can also seperate hating the war and supporting the troops who have been ordered to do this.

    And let's not forget the founding fathers kept slaves and slaughtered native american indians. So in terms of keeping "higher ground" umm, not so sure I want to go there. Certainly government has been twisted since they founded the US, but to many times people fall back on that argument (i.e. gun laws) when we have truly NO idea what they'd do in the current world situation. We are facing issues they never dreamt of. It was easy to say everyone had a right to bear arms when you're talking muskets in order to kill poachers and others. Its quite different for gun control today.

  7. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Posts
    9,507

    Post Re: People get OUTRAGED!

    Quote Originally Posted by big easy View Post
    hey reines.. remember when you and I used to have unusual discussions where we would agree on issues regarding this subject?... have you read my previous post on this thread?... let's put our heads together for just a second.. you will NOT find a republican voter with my opinon on this issue...let's make the most of it for the next few day....cool?
    Yes, bigeasy- we agree on minding our own business.....and the power of the Israeli lobby that virtually controls our foreign policy these days. And I know that you are having deep second thoughts about this war and Bush's presidency. (Better late than never, eh? LOL)
    And we agree that there are people out there who want to do us great harm. Where we differ, I guess, is how to respond. Knee-jerk, emotional displays of violence may make us feel better on a primitive level- but do they really make us any safer? Are there fewer religious fanatics wanting to strike out at us because we've killed up to 600,000 Iraqi citizens by now? I don't think so.
    Kerry got booed and ridiculed by the right when he made the perfectly logical observation that terrorism is basically a CRIME. And that we best fight back by using criminal methods- collaberation with our allies, criminal investigations, funding control, use of informants, etc.
    Would you also agree with me that we can never be absolutely "safe"? We can never live in total security- we can never keep someone from blowing up a truck or himself. It sure looks to me like terrorism is just something we're going to have to learn to live with- just as the British have done for years. It's horrible- but it's the price we pay for living in this global society- isn't it?
    Bin Laden's goal wasn't to kill us all-he has clearly stated that his real goal is to cripple us financially, disrupt our "free" society...and turn our open, free society into something quite different. If we go off the deep end and turn away from our constitutional rights and freedoms in some vain attempt to be 'safe"- hasn't he WON?

    Quote Originally Posted by MeganG View Post
    Reines, you are missing my point. The world can make a more peaceful world by standing up to those who commit terror. But since Muslim govt's have no qualms about letting large organized groups of people make bold sweeping statements against how we are evil and the cause of all their issues, why shouldn't we defend ourselves against that?

    Somehow you also missed I want this war over and I never supported it from the beginning. But I can also seperate hating the war and supporting the troops who have been ordered to do this.

    And let's not forget the founding fathers kept slaves and slaughtered native american indians. So in terms of keeping "higher ground" umm, not so sure I want to go there. Certainly government has been twisted since they founded the US, but to many times people fall back on that argument (i.e. gun laws) when we have truly NO idea what they'd do in the current world situation. We are facing issues they never dreamt of. It was easy to say everyone had a right to bear arms when you're talking muskets in order to kill poachers and others. Its quite different for gun control today.
    Sorry- your post seemed ( to me) to be a call for more violence. You clearly seemed to be at that point you so urgently wished us to recognize! But maybe I misinterpreted.
    Of course we defend ourselves against radical Muslim propaganda- but we do that primarily by showing that we are NOT the great Satan, we are NOT an evil Empire, we are NOT looking to invade their countries and steal their resources, we are NOT going to interfere with their democratically elected governments, we are NOT going to fund and train insurgent parties to de-stabilize and overthrow their rulers, we are NOT going to sacrifice whole generations of brown-skinned peoples for our "right" to drive gas guzzlers.
    We defend ourselves and fight back by showing that we are what we always say we are- free and fair people only wanting others to be equally as free. We lead by example- we gain their respect by acting respectfully. And yes, there is probably a faction of extremists that we can never "reach" in this way....which is exactly why we need our allies and friends to support and stand up for us. We gain strength and power by convincing more and more of the world that we are the best hope for the future- and slowly shut out and marginalize those archaic factions who want to go back to the seventh century.
    All I'm really saying is that we have a much better chance of fighting these people with our brains- instead of our weapons.
    You're so right about our shameful history of genocide against native Americans and slavery! We truly have a lot to be sorry for there.......but the general, over riding principle behind the founding of our country was self-rule. That we, the people, have the only right to determine our course of action and national policy...and government. And didn't it work? After all, we eventually abolished slavery......and native Americans, with their casinos, are slowly taking back the riches of this country! (LOL). Sure, we can't really know what Jefferson and the others would think or do today- it surely is a totally different world. But do you really think they would support our interfering in other countries, as we have? I don't.
    I totally agree with you on the gun thing.

  8. #32
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    3,781

    Re: People get OUTRAGED!

    reines...I appreciate you bringing up Jefferson..he's my favorite FF ..I don't know if you are familiar with the Jefferson and Hamilton debates but I always favored Jefferson's...at any rate...

    my reply at this point would simply be repeating what I said while responding to Jolau... I understand the greiveances of the muslims but I'm also an American who will NEVER oppose the killing of those who want to kill me... when you step back and decide NOT to kill those who threaten your own life, it will ALWAYS cost you eventually.. . it is NEVER pretty...it is ALWAYS full of horror.. but is is called SURVIVAL...

    I wish I were in charge because I would ignore the 2nd largest D.C. lobby and do what is right.... cut funding to Israel until they withdraw to the '67 borders, and allow Jersusalem to be run by an international committee.. all west bank Isralie settlements MUST be disbanded and the palestinians MUST be allowed to create something on their own....

    but again..that will NOT happen therefore the U.S. WILL be a constant target and I will be FOR the death of those who want ME dead...

    Case closed...

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •