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mtj
10.2.17, 7:48 AM
How many more times will something like this have to happen before the powers that be recognize and take action regarding the deplorable state of mental health in this country?

Thoughts and prayers out for all those affected by this horrible thing.

Mike
10.2.17, 9:46 AM
Nevada could have prevented or mitigated this terrorist act if it had responsible, adult gun regulation.

Gun regulation in Nevada is, essentially, "Whatever" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Nevada).

mtj
10.2.17, 10:08 AM
Nevada could have prevented or mitigated this terrorist act if it had responsible, adult gun regulation.

Gun regulation in Nevada is, essentially, "Whatever" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Nevada).


While I agree with your comment about gun regulation, it is only one aspect of the problem.

jolau
10.2.17, 10:15 AM
My concern is how the Republicans/NRA are going to distance themselves from him, and somehow blame liberals.

Mike
10.2.17, 10:45 AM
You're right that the modern-era NRA will try to color this as a mental health issue -- that's SOP. They do what they do. But the rest of us can focus on the victims of this and past events, and try to protect the rest of us from becoming victims in the future.

And, no matter what Wayne L's gang says, the rest of us know that:
A. bringing automatic weapons
B. with multiple high-capacity magazines
C. to a specifically reserved hotel room with vantage over an outdoor concert venue
is premeditated terrorism.

mtj
10.2.17, 12:43 PM
I am not a liberal, modern era or an NRA supporter.
However, this IS a mental health issue.
If you people think that mentally healthy people are committing crimes like this, I really have to wonder about your definition of mental health.
Do you really think that people who commit premeditated terrorism are mentally healthy?

jolau
10.2.17, 2:30 PM
It's not just that, it's the tendency conservatives have when they deflect blame from them and somehow associate them with liberals. Of the previous shootings I've heard......
"Transgendered bank robber"
"Worked for Progressive Insurance"
"Bernie Sanders/Jill Stein Voter"
"Independent"
"Parents are registered Democrats"
Etc. Etc. Etc.

In turn, Democrats are the ones pushing for gun control, so how do these Conservatives explain why Democrats are disarming their own kind?

jolau
10.2.17, 2:41 PM
And if you don't believe me, here's the breakdown.
"Transgendered Bank Robber"/"Independent"
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/colorado-shooter-identifies-as-woman-in-voter-registration/article/2577222

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/30/politics/ted-cruz-planned-parenthood-transgendered-leftist-activist/index.html

"Bernie/Jill Voter"
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/06/14/congressional_baseball_shooter_hated_republicans_h as_died_of_injuries.html

"Worked for Progressive Insurance"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/02/21/six-killed-in-kalamazoo-shooting-spree-were-chosen-at-random-authorities-say/?utm_term=.9d34feff7e4a

Mike
10.2.17, 5:42 PM
I agree MTJ. Nobody in their right mind would drive an airplane into a building, or blow themselves up, just to get a message across.

jolau
10.2.17, 6:46 PM
On the other hand, we seem to have a states of mind (either in groups or among certain individuals) that thinks it's acceptable to use violence to resolve problems.

I also think that kamikaze/suicide tactics are a sign of people fighting a losing battle. They believe their lives are forfeit and think their sacrifice will somehow turn the tide in their favor.

mtj
10.3.17, 5:31 AM
Sadly, as long as people continue to view tragedies like this in terms of liberals vs. conservatives,
we will remain a polarized society who does little to address its more pressing problems.

jolau
10.3.17, 11:26 PM
How do you expect us to address this problem with Conservatives when Liberals have to deal with this on a regular basis whenever there is a shooting? (I found this on Facebook)


Dear Despotic Democrats...the weapons Stephen Paddock used are already banned. Like the failed policies of Chicago, your gun control narrative is false, futile and ignorant. History has proven excessive regulation merely leaves law-abiding citizens defenseless because criminals - oppressive regimes included - will always obtain firearms or any other other weapon necessary to unleash their hate. You cannot stop mass shootings anymore than a government can legislate evil...i.e., human nature. The question isn't why are guns legal; the question is why are so many people now comfortable ending a human life? A crisis of culture, an erosion of our most basic values and a glaring lack of respect for our fellow man, cannot be abridged by any law or solved by any soulless politician seeking to exploit a tragedy in the name of a lie. The Windy City boasts some of the strictest gun control measures in America and in a matter of several months routinely exceeds the total number of people who were killed and injured in Las Vegas last night - the single, greatest mass shooting in American history. Instilling morals in our youth and demanding accountability from all individuals is not a matter for partisan debate, but a prerequisite for ensuring the survival of any civilized society. Progressiveism no more mourns the victims of violence than it values a free, prosperous and independent populace capable of defending itself against all forms of tyranny; most notably, a corrupt media, liberal fascists and numerous other anti-American hate groups.


Copied from Xavier Keough

It's all there. Crime in Chicago, telling us we need to instill morality and responsibility (I'm surprised GOD isn't mentioned), claiming how an unarmed people are helpless against criminals and oppressive regimes, etc.

Conservatives have a habit of portraying liberals as immoral, enablers of crime, and despotic. They call themselves people of responsibility and discipline, and yet violence seems to be the answer to a lot of their problems. Be it how to discipline your children and dealing with the schoolyard bully, to the tensions with North Korea.

jolau
10.4.17, 12:37 AM
Now a liberal response...... (Again, found on Facebook)


I don't want to hear any pro gun bull shit about "criminals will always find a way" And "A good guy with a gun could have stopped it" Let me just remind you, even the most expertly trained snipers in our Military would not have an easy time taking out a point target in a window, 500 meters distant and 100 meters elevated, in the dark. And there WERE police there, who are trained at using their 9mm Glocks, who were totally useless, to the point of becoming victims themselves. WE need to stop this NOW. Too many American lives have been sacrificed at the altar of the Second Amendment, which was NEVER intended to make wholesale slaughter an American way of life. None of you needs an automatic rifle. If you're properly trained, you'll only need one bullet to take out an intruder. You don't need to turn him into hamburger. Fully automatic weapons are NOT easily controlled. Anyone who has fired one can tell you that..

mtj
10.4.17, 8:20 AM
It seems obvious that some people are only able to view a tragedy such as this through political eyes.

jolau
10.4.17, 10:27 AM
You don't seem to be coming up with any solutions either.

Mike
10.4.17, 12:09 PM
I *think* that gun control becomes a political issue after one of these horrific events because:

-- gun control has been made a political issue by the NRA-based lobby,


-- and artificially made into a so-called "2nd Amendment" issue, when it, in fact, is not,

-- because the NRA-lobby funds so many congressional campaigns, and
-- the NRA-lobby won't allow gun control to come up for discussion at any other time, and
-- after these shooting events happens, the NRA-lobby and their sponsored congresspersons and senators trot out:


-- "this is not the appropriate time to discuss gun control"
-- "mental healthcare is a problem in the US" (but in two weeks it won't be, because "Obamacare")
-- "guns don't kill people; people kill people" (just like cars and atomic bombs, which require no licensing or treaties).

If the NRA lobby (a purely political entity, that exists solely for political purposes) would be quiet and allow common sense to prevail, then it would not be a political issue.

jolau
10.4.17, 3:36 PM
This is exactly what I'm talking about. The conservatives buy this "guns don't kill people, people kill people" narrative and they assume all these problems are because of lack of morality. Conservatives also like to bring on this narrative that Conservatives don't do mass shootings, they have morals, they value life, etc. It's the younger more liberal generations that's the problem. (tack on to that a certain televangelist that is using this incident to fill pews, get people to watch his show, and give him money)
Robert Dear (thought I would mention another mass-shooter) and Stephen Paddock were in their 50's and 60's. Far from "youth" let alone being "millennial". Robert Dear was a religious person, and unless Stephen Paddock was raised by Beatniks, I would assume Paddock had the usual 1950's/early 60's upbringing which would have included spankings and going to church on Sunday.

This also brings another question, how could he bring up all this luggage that contained all these guns, ammo, and surveillance equipment without arousing suspicion? Can you imagine what would have happened if he were Black or Muslim?

Mike
10.4.17, 5:29 PM
Let's be clear; not all conservatives buy the gun lobby's lines. And not all liberals are anti-gun.

Too insist, or even just to insinuate otherwise is way too wide a political brush.

mtj
10.4.17, 6:40 PM
More options for better mental health care was "the solution" I suggested when I started this thread.
No matter what the situation with guns is...available or not...mentally healthy people do not obtain guns to commit mass homicide.
The root of the problem needs to be addressed to solve it.

Again, it is unfortunate that some people can't see the tragedy in the loss of life.
Instead, they just take the opportunity to make it another issue in their endless litany about something political.
That won't solve horrible situations like this either.

jolau
10.4.17, 7:33 PM
Any solution will have to come across a politician's desk and/or have to be discussed in a political forum of some form or another. Politicians are the ones that pass laws, control budgets (including that for mental health care), and do things that promote one stance or another. What needs to be done as far as politics goes is to determine who is doing what.
If you are expecting the gun industry itself to do something about it, forget it.
As for mental health services, it has to be done in a way that it helps everyone from the richest to the poorest of the poor. for that, see above.

If now is not the time to discuss the political ramifications of these tragedies, when is it?

Mike
10.4.17, 7:37 PM
Well; the root of the gun control problem is, of course, guns and who has access to them.

People with certain mental health issues probably should not be allowed to own guns. But then you have to deal with which mental health issues exactly would be precluded. And how do we-the-people determine who is mentally unhealthy? The proposals for AHCA would reduce the already low funding in America for public mental health services; so this again swings this aspect toward being a political issue.

Attacking it from the root, as you, I believe, correctly suggest, would allow us to consider what guns are unsafe in the general public. We already know that fully automatic weapons are unnecessary for any purpose other than military, and that, in general, they are unsafe in the hands of the general public. So couldn't we at least start there -- say, back to the Bush era ban on assault weapons? What could be wrong with that?

We do regulate access to things that are unsafe in the wrong hands. No tobacco or alcohol for minors. No commercial flights for unlicensed pilots. No driving for unlicensed drivers.

Why not no guns for unlicensed owners? Just for starters.

jolau
10.5.17, 2:53 AM
Let's be clear; not all conservatives buy the gun lobby's lines. And not all liberals are anti-gun.

Too insist, or even just to insinuate otherwise is way too wide a political brush.

You have to admit that commenting on crime in Chicago, Detroit, or some other major city and claiming such problems are due to the lack of morality and/or religion is not productive.

Mike
10.5.17, 3:04 PM
You have to admit that commenting on crime in Chicago, Detroit, or some other major city and claiming such problems are due to the lack of morality and/or religion is not productive.
Just went back through this thread to make sure, and the only posts that mention places other than Las Vegas were put up by JL. So; not following your point vis this thread.

jolau
10.5.17, 4:03 PM
Of course, only three people are participating in this thread.

But outside this thread, outside Coffeerooms, in forums that include a wider range of people participating, you get people like that. Just look at the comments section anytime someone like George Takei, Gavin Newsom, or Kamala Harris post something about gun control on Facebook.

jolau
10.5.17, 4:58 PM
Stuff like this is all over Facebook.

https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22154445_10208022151910230_874485639865804110_n.jp g?oh=45c56582d0f4d307a1eff0dbecdbadff&oe=5A4C1FA9